Terry Montesi and Chris Kleinert explore the complexities of large-scale real estate development in one of the country’s fastest-growing markets. Kleinert, CEO of Hunt Realty Investments, shares how his background in banking workouts and private equity prepared him to lead major projects with permanent family capital. The conversation moves through the evolution of downtown Dallas, the strategic choices behind mixed-use development, and what it means to plan projects with a 20-year horizon.
They discuss:
– How Hunt acquired the 2,500-acre Fields development in Frisco and landed the PGA of America headquarters
– Why Goldman Sachs chose the North End site in Dallas and what it signals about corporate migration
– The challenge of activating downtown Dallas beyond office buildings and addressing vagrancy alongside homelessness
– Why energy infrastructure and power availability will determine whether DFW can sustain its growth trajectory
– How Ray Hunt’s philosophy of fewer, deeper relationships shaped the company’s approach to partnerships
This episode offers practical insight for anyone working in urban development, real estate investment, or regional economic strategy.
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Listen on Spotify here.
Transcript:
Terry Montesi: What’s Hunt’s house view on the DFW economy and this trade area?
Chris Kleinert: Mm-hmm. Still very bullish. E- even with my thoughts on downtown Dallas, and again, I think, I think those are gonna be fixed. You know, I think-
Terry Montesi: Well, downtown Dallas is arguably one of four, five, six, seven downtowns in the metroplex now.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah.
Right. I know. Well, you know, in essence, it’s like driving around Los Angeles, and you see pockets that are thriving. And, you know, Ray was a big backer, enthusiast for the DFW Airport and, and sort of recognizing the impact that that would have. And you just look at all the things that… Just kinda draw a circle around the entire metroplex.
Here we sit in Fort Worth. The incredible things that are happening north of here, south of here, right here in the city center, you know, West Fort Worth, the tollway essentially going up to Oklahoma. I mean, this- It’s crazy … this market is fantastic
Terry Montesi: Today I’m excited to welcome my friend Chris Cliner to Leaning In. Chris is CEO of Hunt Realty Investments, the real estate arm of Ray Hunt’s family business, and one of the most respected privately held companies in the country. And by the way, in twenty twenty-four, SMU recognized he and his wife Ashley with the J.
Eric Johnson Ethics Award for Public Service and Moral Leadership. And other than being a dang good guy, which what sets Chris apart from a lot of us, is that he invests with permanent family capital and a horizon measured in decades, and I’m super jealous. Right now, that includes some really big projects in the DFW area: The Fields, which is a roughly twenty-five hundred acre master planned community in Frisco, and the North End in Uptown Dallas And Chris and I have known each other for years through YPO mission trips, the DFW real estate community, and just being around.
Chris, welcome to Leaning In.
Chris Kleinert: Terry, thank you. I’m, honestly, I’m thrilled to be here. I appreciate our friendship, and to do this with you actually means a lot to me. Well, great. I’m thrilled.
Terry Montesi: Thank you. I think my listeners will have fun today. So Chris, tell us a little about your background. You came through General Mills, Texas Commerce Bank also before joining Hunt in 1996.
Tell us about the path that led you where you are today.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, certainly a circuitous one. Uh, if you think of General Mills and then Texas Commerce, how does that kind of mesh? Yeah. Uh, General Mills was my first job out of high school. My wife and I… or first job out of college. Uh, my wife Ashley and I, we met at SMU, and so it was quite a shock for her.
Uh, she had one extra semester. She was a, uh, education major, so she had one student teaching semester, uh, to go after technically graduating. And we get married, go on our honeymoon, and then she comes to Tulsa. You got
Terry Montesi: married right out of college.
Chris Kleinert: Right out of college, uh, in December. I graduate, we both graduate in May, but, uh, I took the job with General Mills.
I’m in Tulsa, and we get married, and she, uh, we truly take the flight back to Tulsa, and she’s like, I’m sure she’s saying, “What did I do? What did I do?” And, uh, Tulsa was great. General Mills was great. Uh, but I realized there I really needed some financial acumen, which I really didn’t have. Uh, went to TCU and right out of school, out of getting my MBA, went to work for Texas Commerce Bank.
And-
Terry Montesi: And I didn’t know you went to TCU.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. And so to drive around campus just today, amazing. Amazing. It makes me realize how- It’s changed- … I’m getting-
Terry Montesi: It’s changed a little since you were there. It’s
Chris Kleinert: changed a lot.
Terry Montesi: Gary and, and, uh, Victor have really changed things.
Chris Kleinert: It’s incredible leadership. Always comes back to leadership.
It is. And, uh, speaking of leadership, I got to work with John Adams and Todd Macklin and Elaine Agatha and, uh, Rob Holmes and Mike Lister, if you know Mike.
Terry Montesi: At TCB?
Chris Kleinert: At Texas Commerce Bank. So they were
Terry Montesi: all there.
Chris Kleinert: It was an incredible time. And, uh, you know, we talked earlier about kind of the late ’80s and RTC and just kind of crazy times.
The, you know, the things I got to work on at Texas Commerce Bank really kind of in a workout era, an incredible education.
Terry Montesi: So you were in real estate workouts and loans.
Chris Kleinert: Everything. I was kind of the credit analyst and, and in a sense got to do like a, instead of a one or two-year program, which it was, but my first couple years out you’re working on all these kind of trouble-
Terry Montesi: That’s a PhD.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, it was a PhD. And so, uh, why does that matter, this background, this circuitous route? Ray, uh, my father-in-law, always had this philosophy of it’s, it’s– and still, it’s always about the people. It’s about the people. And when projects would come his way, he would take people from… It’d be like the two of us.
He’d go, “Hey, I want you guys to go work on this project.” And you’re like, “I’ve got a day job.” He’d be like, “Yeah, but I really want you to work on this project.” And those tended to be investments that were sort of outside of oil and gas. And he had done a few of those, enough that the people around him, Doc Cornut, if you remember Doc, and John Scoville and others all said, “You need to form a business to do investing.”
And so my first job at Hunt was the young analyst on a newly formed private equity team.
Terry Montesi: Oh.
Chris Kleinert: And, and that was really my early-
Terry Montesi: So you joined there when?
Chris Kleinert: 1996. May of ’96, so 30-plus years. And sort of long story short, we did some deals, middle market sort of t-type deals. Went and raised a fund. Uh, Steve Smiley, if you, if you knew Steve, Steve did a great job running our team.
We raised a fund, and Ray, typical Ray, contrarian, uh, looked around and said, “Wait a second. We just successfully raised this fund, but the LPs want us to do $5 to $15 million middle market deals?” And we’re all like, “That’s exactly what we told them we’d do.” And he’s, these are my words, not his, but, “I didn’t get into the private equity business just to do this.”
And I basically, at, at the age of probably 33, for-fortuitously and gratefully, I, I am I want you to do everything else.” And I said, “Well, what does that mean?” He goes, “I don’t know. Go figure it out.” And so that’s been my career. I’ve kind of been the go figure it out, and the latitude-
Terry Montesi: Everything but energy
Chris Kleinert: every- Well, yeah, right. Diff- differentiating, uh, diversifying- Correct … the company away from oil and gas. Uh, we had our real estate team, Gene Sanger at the time. Uh, you, I’m sure you remember Gene. And in fact, I started the same day as Gene, uh, way back when. It was, we need to expand the company. It’s Hunt Oil and kinda everything else, including Hunt Realty at the time.
And so, uh, Ray’s all about growth. I wanna see how we could grow the investment business.
Terry Montesi: That’s
Chris Kleinert: great. So I got to do that.
Terry Montesi: Tell us some key lessons that you’ve learned from Ray.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. Uh, well, I think I referenced, you know, he’s… it’s always about the people and relationships. And, uh, Ray’s always been a believer in a smaller number of deeper relationships, and that’s really served us well, uh, in the oil company.
And how can that play out in other areas? And so in the investing area, I was very fortunate, and, and Hunter and I still believe this today, and we empower our young people, uh, we stand on the shoulders of incredible people that came before us, uh- We’ve got a calling card that can get us in just about anywhere.
What you do from there, it’s up to you. Yeah. Right? So get after it. And it’s really empowering and, and that was sort of my mandate. And y- you know, one of the things that Ray has done a very good job, and I’ve watched him, is he’s… And when I say judge, I don’t mean harsh, but judge in terms of character and quality- Yeah
and-
Terry Montesi: Size up …
Chris Kleinert: size up. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think I’ve learned that from him. And so who are those people that can really make a difference in your life? I appreciate you. You’re- you’re like that, uh, somebody that you aspire to wanna be like, that you can learn from. And that’s put us in the position of seeing unique things, partnering with unique people, uh, access to things we might not have otherwise done.
And then, you know, sort of the golden rule, treat them how you’d like to be treated, and as a result, good things have happened.
Terry Montesi: You have a lot of good partnerships.
Chris Kleinert: A lot of good partnerships.
Terry Montesi: So one thing your organization, uh, espouses is that an expanding organization should have more dreams than memories.
Chris Kleinert: Mm-hmm.
Terry Montesi: Um, and that really, I- I think I know what that means, and it’s, it’s very, uh, interesting to me, but I want, I want you to help my listeners understand what that means. Sure.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, we take great pride… We’re a 90-plus-year-old business today, founded December 18th, 1934.
Terry Montesi: Wow.
Chris Kleinert: And we take great pride in that.
In our office building, uh, which now we have the D- Dallas Petroleum Club at the top of our building, that was our employee cafeteria. We wanted the best part of our building to be where our employees could be every day and, you know, li- uh, come have lunch, breakfast. Anyway, the ceiling is the night sky, December 18, 1934.
Uh, exactly, so we think. There are a bunch of dots on the ceiling. We think that’s where the stars were, but-
Terry Montesi: And I think I’ve been up there. I think, I think- Yeah … I think that I remember that.
Chris Kleinert: And the point of me saying that is everything we do is kind of rooted in this very unique history starting back with H.L.
Hunt. And we talk so much about our unique history and our unique culture. Honestly, it was Hunter, uh, Ray, and myself, a- and I’ll say collectively, we, we sort of concluded to continue to attract… This company is only as good as the people we have. And to attract talent, they need to believe in the future, not just think they’re going to work for a good company, but what do we have in store for them?
What are we empowering them, them to do? We need to aspire to as many great things as we’ve ever achieved before. And so there came the saying, “We’ve got to have more dreams than memories.”
Terry Montesi: Got it. That’s great. Um- And back to the organization, um, how did, how did Ray and, and you take a founder-centric entrepreneurial organization and evolve it into a world-class institution built to last beyond any single family member?
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. Uh, well, excellent question, and I, I really… Uh, it’s- I think I have a bit of entrepreneurial spirit in me. Hunter and Ray have… They, they’re- A
Terry Montesi: ton …
Chris Kleinert: they have a ton.
Terry Montesi: Well, yeah, see, I see you a little bit as the, the yang to their yin.
Chris Kleinert: Y- yeah, and I think it, I think with Hunter especially as we, uh, as Ray has handed off to us, I think that works really well, is, y- you know, vision and execution and they need to meet, ’cause if they don’t
Terry Montesi: Yeah
Chris Kleinert: if you have no vision, you’re going nowhere. If you have no execution, you’re not gonna achieve the vision. Yeah. Uh, and I think that’s, that’s one of the things that Ray historically has done a fantastic job of, is, you know, aspiring to do big things. Uh, n- you know, not getting sidetracked by too many, but what are those few things we wanna do and doing them really well.
Terry Montesi: Well, I wanna talk about some of the projects and real estate, the real estate projects you guys are involved in-
Chris Kleinert: Sure …
Terry Montesi: in the Metroplex. So we’ll start with Reunion, which has been around a long time and, um, so it’s a, it’s a landmark piece of real estate, includes the Reunion Complex, the H- Hyatt Regency.
Um, and so what, what are, what are the plans? What are y’all thinking about, um, for that site long term? I know it’s close to the, to the convention center. There’s a lot of, uh, infrastructure and rail and streets and viaducts and all that around. So t- tell us about plans and what the biggest challenges are, um, to, to end up with a walkable district that adds value to the city.
Chris Kleinert: Y- y- you said a lot there that’s, uh, first of all, by the way, that was incredibly accurate, uh, description of the site. It is complicated.
Terry Montesi: It is.
Chris Kleinert: And if I could go back a little bit, you know, Ray had the idea, right? And, and working with John Skohel, who was at Hunt at the time.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: Uh-
Terry Montesi: I know some of his kids.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, exactly. They, they had a vision for what that could be. Uh, really Ray had the vision, John helped design and execute this, this incredible, uh- Well,
Terry Montesi: there’s … Talk about people, there’s a great, there’s a great people that he hired
Chris Kleinert: right there. Great people. Great people. And, and John was at Arthur Anderson, right?
I mean, he’d never done a hotel before, but he’s-
Terry Montesi: Good guy and I’m gonna pluck him out …
Chris Kleinert: Exactly. That’s the kind of person. Uh, he’s a winner. That’s right. And I wanna, I wanna work with that guy. And so back to the complicated site, uh, y- you know, truly with Reunion Arena there until, uh, the AAC kinda opened up in 2000, Reunion Arena was there until 2006, got torn down in 2007 or ’08.
What we now know of as the 20 acres that we own at, that was Reunion. As a Mavericks fan, you’ll remember the old Lot E.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: Okay? So there was the Lot E on the other side of the viaducts We have some ownership there, the city has some ownership there. The, uh, city owned the land under the, the re- uh, the Reunion Arena.
We own the land around it. Checkerboard thing- Okay … on both sides. Very complicated just from an ownership perspective, let alone the rail and some other things. So all that got cleaned up post, uh, GFC, if you will. And we had these aspirations with, at that time, give or take 300,000 people going by on 30 and 35.
What an ideal corporate relocation site. Just, this is perfect. High visibility. Obviously didn’t happen, okay? So, uh, when Amazon came and didn’t l- uh, choose HQ Dallas for HQ2, you know, the light bulb kind of went on, “Hey, let’s maybe rethink our master plan here of what this could or should be.” So, um-
Terry Montesi: Well, you know, you mention that’s interesting ’cause we, we operate the Galleria Dallas- Mm-hmm
which is, I think, some of the best real estate in the country at the Tollway and LBJ. And you’re, you’re, you’re right. Thinking about the visibility if you had something big there, um, what an unbelievable marquee piece of real estate.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. Exactly. And so, you know, and I, I don’t wanna keep coming back to the rail, but when…
Okay, so we start to abandon the idea of a corporate relocation, and Ray was really or has been really wedded to that idea. Uh, COVID hits in ’20. We really start to see, um, sort of migration out of downtown in, in this uptown, you know, boom, uh, thanks to Klyde Warren Park and other things. But- You know, it doesn’t take a genius, when I’m not a real estate genius, to say that’s not gonna happen at Reunion.
So we started coming up with some interesting mixed use plans, but then, and, and you’re a master at this, we were struggling with what’s the there? What… You- you’re, you’re an island in a sense, and so-
Terry Montesi: It’s a little removed.
Chris Kleinert: It’s a little removed. And then the convention center,
Terry Montesi: um- It’s more destination, highly visible destination.
Chris Kleinert: E- exactly. And so we’re, we’re migrating, I don’t know how successful we’ll be, but we’re migrating to a path of what is really, uh, an amenity almost for the convention center. And if we’re gonna have all these people coming, by the way, we’ve got our hotel there, how can we create sort of a destination area right next to the convention center?
I don’t know to what extent that that’s gonna include residential, because again, you’re not close to anything. So it’s both a great site in terms of 20 acres near a downtown location, and yet a challenged site from you’re a little bit, uh, secluded, isolated. So we’re trying to seize every advantage we can with the new convention- Yeah
center to think, “Okay, how can we connect and, and build something that-”
Terry Montesi: I think it’s great for some uses, and maybe it’s a little challenge for others.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Terry Montesi: Uh, thanks. Well, let’s talk about the Fields.
Chris Kleinert: Sure.
Terry Montesi: Wow. Wow.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. Wow is right.
Terry Montesi: Tiger by the tail, man.
Chris Kleinert: Y- yeah.
Terry Montesi: Wow. I, I remember reading about that, and I, I, I have- I have missed a lot of things, and I pay attention to demographics, but I missed, ’cause I look at the demographics of the Fields today and versus a lot of things that I’m doing or looking around at, and I look to think about legacy, and the demographics s- got so good so quickly up there.
And now it’s led to some great things. So, um, tell us about the Fields. I don’t have to get into the stats. You can tell us about that. And one thing that I noticed, ’cause, you know, I’m, I’m pretty plugged into the real es- the retail side of things here, is that I hear the, I guess the phase one that, um, is 75% pre-leased.
And wow, and I’ve seen the merchandising plan, and I know people working on it and people that have represent, represented tenants there. And wow, what a great success. Congrats. So tell us about it. What’s gonna be there? You know, the PGA of America, this Universal Kids Resort and Fields West. And s- just tell us about the Fields- Sure
one of, one of the great new mixed-use developments in Texas.
Chris Kleinert: Well, and I’ll accept those congratulations you’ve just, uh, mentioned on behalf of an incredible team. Oh,
Terry Montesi: yeah, Phemi and
Chris Kleinert: a lot
Terry Montesi: others. Just,
Chris Kleinert: yeah, our, our internal- Robert Shaw … the Hunt Realty team, the partners we’ve got- Yeah … the, um… Yeah, Phemi Karagian, our, our investment capital partners, uh, Chief and Cross Tie.
Terry Montesi: So you bought it in 2018. So
Chris Kleinert: t- tell us the history. Sure. So in 2016, we had just sold a meaningful part of our, uh, activity base, if you will, within Hunt Realty. We sold our Ackard Street Partners, uh, operating partnership partnership. We sold, we sold that to our capital partner, TRS. And went, and what went with the sale was 15 of our 18 Hunt Realty team members, showing you how big a-
Terry Montesi: Wow
Chris Kleinert: kind of the activity, uh-
Terry Montesi: What were the properties? …
Chris Kleinert: intensity. Well, we had six different opcos and six different product types.
Terry Montesi: Oh, wow.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. And it was really ascending. It was going great, and we sold it for a couple reasons. One, uh, long story on the oil side, but we lost our, uh, concession in Yemen, which overnight, one-third of our cash flow went away.
Really basically because of the civil war there. Yeah. It’s, it wasn’t so much the concession, but, uh-
Terry Montesi: Geopolitical risk. Geopolitical risk. Came back to haunt
Chris Kleinert: you. It, it did in a big way. And so, uh, and the oil prices being what they were at the time, selling that, which w- again, was ascending. The team that was running that did a great job.
We had the ability to sell it, help the oil company, and in a sense, number two, reset our real estate business to being more active, and we didn’t know what that was gonna mean, right in our own market. We were doing all these great things around the country, but nothing really here since Reunion.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: Okay? And we can talk about North End and the- Yeah … 550 apartments there, but that came out of JPI, another- Yeah … operating partner.
Terry Montesi: We’ve talked about it,
Chris Kleinert: yeah. Yeah. Okay, so-
Terry Montesi: Right next to Victory where we were.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, y- you know, back to reputation, we’re trying to figure out what is it we should do with Hunt Realty.
We’ve got Reunion. We’ve got the, uh… We’ve got kind of land parcels throughout, but we didn’t really have a dedicated DFW strategy. And- The Bert Fields estate, Bert Fields Jr. passes away. Their estate is run by an individual by the name of Mike Haggerty. And Mike is close friends with a individual by the name of Les Melcher, who worked with Woodbine Development.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: And these are my words, not theirs.
Terry Montesi: Used to work at Lincoln with me.
Chris Kleinert: Okay. Terrific person. Yeah. And again, just go to quality people.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: My words not, not, uh, not Mike’s or Les’s, but we, we need somebody much like a Bert Fields, high integrity, will care for this property, will do right for the community, as he did for Fields.
He was a great sort of steward of, of Frisco way back when. We need somebody to do in the future what Bert Fields has done to this point. That person’s Ray Hunt. And the irony- Wow … the irony is we, for a lot of reasons, we weren’t ready to be the buyer, and the beneficiaries of the state, of the estate weren’t really ready to be the sellers.
And so we say… We, we said no, but it was kind of a mutual, “Let’s get back together.” And nine months later in 2018, we-
Terry Montesi: Made a deal …
Chris Kleinert: we made a deal. And they just, again, back to the quality of people, same price that was offered nine months earlier, even though what had transpired sorta in the background, and this was not unknown to us, but what had evolved was, again, you go back to quality people.
Uh, the, there was an individual that was really leading the effort to get the PGA of America to relocate. You’ve got-
Terry Montesi: So that was already brewing.
Chris Kleinert: That was brewing. You’ve got Bob Rowling and, and Bob and Blake and the Omni team working- They’re
Terry Montesi: already focused on
Chris Kleinert: doing that … they’re already focused this.
And so they had a handshake deal with the estate essentially to sell land, and we step into the shoes- Oh, wow … of the estate.
Terry Montesi: That’s awfully-
Chris Kleinert: And so amazing …
Terry Montesi: fortuitous, man.
Chris Kleinert: Fortuitous. Amazing. And so again, I’m no real estate genius, but when you… Oh, and by the way, again, I look at our team. Our team had evolved.
We’ve got a great person involved, Todd Watson. Uh, we needed, back to differentiation and kind of being something unique, uh- Getting Femi Karahan, who thanks to my wife Ashley, uh, in, in an ill-fated project that she was trying to launch that Femi put his arm around her shoulder, her shoulder and said, “I don’t know if you should be doing this.”
We became friends 10 years earlier. Going to Femi and just saying, “Hey, what do you think? I, I feel like this is something we need to do, but your opinion matters so much to me.” And he said, “I’d like to do it, and let’s do it together.”
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: And sort of the rest is, is-
Terry Montesi: Is history …
Chris Kleinert: is history. And, you know, one of the things that we did was we went to the city early and often.
As– We hadn’t even bought it yet, but as we’re approaching sort of the, the close, and worked with, uh, George Purefoy, the city manager at the time, and John Letler and, and really importantly, Jeff Chaney, Mayor Chaney. And the desire to wanna see Femi in Frisco instead of Plano, number one, and number two, uh, truly differentiated product and casting a vision for 2,500 acres, some- a, a piece of property that could house 15,000 people.
Uh, let’s do something we’ve not done in Frisco, and frankly, let’s try to do something we’ve not seen in North Texas. And casting this vision that they bought into, and eight years later, it’s starting to play out in a powerful way. Uh, it’s just been I mean, I’m so grateful. It’s incredible.
Terry Montesi: Yeah. That’s- it’s- it is very special.
So it’s, it’s, uh, the Fields West development is the- Mm-hmm … sort of mixed use downtown.
Chris Kleinert: Mm-hmm.
Terry Montesi: Um, d- uh, give us the stats on it. What, what all is gonna be in Fields West?
Chris Kleinert: Sure. So, uh, we’ve got… So Fields West will be about one block longer than Legacy West.
Terry Montesi: Okay.
Chris Kleinert: I think we have 350,000 square feet of office- Yeah
of multi-family, and retail.
Terry Montesi: Like, a little over 1,000 units of multi, right?
Chris Kleinert: Correct. Exactly.
Terry Montesi: And 360-ish of retail? Mm-hmm. That’s what my stats said.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, exactly. Good. Uh, and-
Terry Montesi: Is that all getting built-
Chris Kleinert: It is … at
Terry Montesi: once?
Chris Kleinert: So we’re doing… Yeah, we technically have three sequences. We’re not calling them- Okay … phases.
We have three sequences. Uh, yeah, just to be different, right? Okay. Differentiating the product.
Terry Montesi: Exactly.
Chris Kleinert: Hey, we got sequences.
Terry Montesi: Okay.
Chris Kleinert: You know, that’s how good we are, okay? And they’re gonna be-
Terry Montesi: It’s a, it’s a higher, higher class name for-
Chris Kleinert: Yeah …
Terry Montesi: phasing.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, exactly. You know, just showing how higher end our product is.
Yeah. So w- it’s gonna be, uh… We’re gonna start leasing the apartments January 1, the retail, and if you take all three sequences, truly 75% leased across it all.
Terry Montesi: The whole thing.
Chris Kleinert: Just, it- it’s, it’s amazing. And the office, as you might imagine, is a little bit slower. Yeah. But I think when you see, when one sees the, the product nearing completion or at completion, w- we’re not too worried.
Terry Montesi: Well, my experience in mixed use places in suburbs is the, the office, it really rarely pre-leases.
Chris Kleinert: Mm.
Terry Montesi: It leases really well once the place opens.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah.
Terry Montesi: Well- Yeah, it’s not, it’s not corp- big corporate users that are- No … planning two and three years ahead of time- Right … or five years ahead of time, like- Right
Goldman or something.
Chris Kleinert: Exactly. So y- you know, that’s the, the gem, if you will, the pearl in the oyster. The… We’ve got, uh, all price points of housing product surrounding it, 25 miles of trails that all connect to Fields West and out. So it’s, it’s, it’s pretty special.
Terry Montesi: Yeah, it is. And so, uh, um, something most people don’t ever have a chance to sort of think about, um, which it could take…
How long could it take to get to 95% build-out?
Chris Kleinert: Mm. It could take… Well, you know, it’s funny how time passes. Okay, so to answer your question- It’s already
Terry Montesi: been eight.
Chris Kleinert: It’s already been eight.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, exactly. When somebody says it’s a 20-year project, y- you’re kinda like, “Yeah, okay. Sure, whatever.” And, you know, here we are at eight, and I think we are way ahead of schedule.
Terry Montesi: Yeah, it feels like you are.
Chris Kleinert: And it’s a 20-year project.
Terry Montesi: Okay, that’s what I thought.
Chris Kleinert: It j- it just is.
Terry Montesi: And so how do you, how do you underwrite a project with a 20-year horizon?
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. Uh- I wish I could say we had… W- okay, I don’t mean to suggest we didn’t have models and forecasts. Yeah. Of, of course we did. A, and you referenced this earlier, we’ve got very long-term patient capital.
And as a family, we take the view of if we are doing something truly unique and differentiated, and we are executing well, it should cash flow fine. That’s a pretty simplistic view.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, and I have a smile on my face because we just w- we don’t get into terribly deep financial analysis, but when you have partners, you need to, uh, convey that kind of information.
Thankfully, A, they have the same long-term view. B, we knew we were walking into the sale, uh, of 550 acres to, um, the partnership name is OSW, but essentially the PG of America and the Omni, and with that we were gonna get back nearly half our money. Wow. And with the low basis we had, we thought, okay, this market, and especially, you know, we had the tailwind of low interest rates at the time.
We couldn’t get going on the housing fast enough, and selling to, uh, the more production builders in parts. Uh, we’ve got a great housing partner in John Landon. He’s just done a fantastic job. He’s been a meaningful buyer of property and a builder. We’ve had some others build. Uh, but those kinds of activities with Robert Shaw and Columbus, they’ve helped us not only sort of return capital, but allow us the ability to, uh, contribute land or reinvest in some of these projects.
So we’re still very long-
Terry Montesi: Yeah …
Chris Kleinert: fields.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, but yet I think all our partners would say we’re pretty happy with the return-
Terry Montesi: That’s great …
Chris Kleinert: so far.
Terry Montesi: Um, let’s talk about North End.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, let’s do.
Terry Montesi: But you know, it’s so funny, I, I, I feel like I’ve been by the old JPI apartments there 500 times and, and may have.
Um, so, um, tell us about North End, y’all’s history. You alluded to it a little while ago, and this, uh, the Goldman Sachs campus that I think you kept sort of referred to as sequence one.
Chris Kleinert: Mm.
Terry Montesi: Right?
Chris Kleinert: Right.
Terry Montesi: Um, I would’ve used the word phase until I just heard that. And, and, and then, um, the, uh, the Goldman Sachs process, working with the city, trying to get them to come there.
So just, uh, tee it up for that.
Chris Kleinert: Sure. Okay.
Terry Montesi: Tell us the story.
Chris Kleinert: Uh-
Terry Montesi: And by the way, I’m gonna interrupt for a second ’cause there’s something I wanna work in and my subconscious was yelling at me. I got to spend a few minutes with Ray up on the top of y’all’s building at some event. I don’t remember where it was, but you might remember because you introduced me to him And what a sweet, kind, gentle, humble guy.
I just, it really, it made a, a real impact on me ’cause I’ve, I’ve met a lot of wealthy people and a lot of pe- important people, a lot of revered people, but I hadn’t met many that were as kind and gentle and sweet and as humble as your father-in-law
Chris Kleinert: Well, I appreciate you saying that. I love the man. I, I appreciate how he’s loved me.
Uh, why, I’m not sure, but he has and just, uh, he’s, he’s just been the greatest sort of father figure and-
Terry Montesi: Yeah …
Chris Kleinert: mentor and, and
Terry Montesi: he- So thanks for letting me interrupt. No, I appreciate
Chris Kleinert: that I,
Terry Montesi: I, I wanted to work that in.
Chris Kleinert: Thank you. In y- you know, 1989, we… So the, on this fishing trip was, uh, Ray’s wife Nancy’s father, uh, Elmo Hunter.
He was a federal judge in Kansas City and a great man.
Terry Montesi: Okay.
Chris Kleinert: And Ray loved him. And we took him fishing ’cause he was the fisherman.
Terry Montesi: Okay.
Chris Kleinert: And so, uh, it was really a gift to Ray. Ray was a gift to Elmo in that w- he and I sort of concoct this sort of family outing. And we’re sitting on the back of the boat inhaling diesel fumes as we’re trolling.
Uh, and he’s telling me about these five partnerships. This opera-
Terry Montesi: So this is Ashley’s grandfather?
Chris Kleinert: This is-
Terry Montesi: Right? …
Chris Kleinert: Ashley’s grandfather.
Terry Montesi: Was on a fishing trip with you-
Chris Kleinert: It was- …
Terry Montesi: as an adult.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah.
Terry Montesi: Wow.
Chris Kleinert: It was this really cool multi-generational- Yeah … deal. And, uh, Hunter wasn’t able to be there, so it’s myself and another sibling of Ashley’s and Hunter, uh, Tanner.
And so we’re on the boat, and the punchline is he’s telling me, me about these five new operating partnerships he’s forming, one of which was JPI.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: And I didn’t know up from down, so I didn’t really know, but it was fascinating to ask him a lot of questions about why and what is it you’re doing and why not internally?
What’s the benefit of the op- opco model? And anyway, JPI became, as you know, uh, with Frank Miller’s leadership, depending on the year- And Bobby … and Bobby, Bobby Page, exactly, uh, the number one or two multifamily developer in the country.
Terry Montesi: Yeah. Prolific.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, prolific, incredibly successful. And, uh, GE became a partner, and long story short, there was a buyout, and, and in the documents, sort of a handshake, but if Ray wanted to buy out any assets-
Terry Montesi: He could
Chris Kleinert: he could. And he picked one, and it was the North End Apartments, 2323 Field Street. Okay. Just north of Woodall Rodgers.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: And so-
Terry Montesi: And it’s, for everybody, it’s, it due east of Victory, and it’s where Goldman Sachs is now going up
Chris Kleinert: That’s right. And so we had 550 apartments there. And- Uh, I’ll, again, I’ll deviate for just a moment and, uh, it doesn’t hurt my feelings if you say bring it back in.
No, it’s all
Terry Montesi: right.
Chris Kleinert: But, uh, you recall Colin FitzGibbon. So-
Terry Montesi: Yeah …
Chris Kleinert: so we hired a president.
Terry Montesi: I figured I was gonna bring him up at the end if you didn’t bring him up.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, just… I would get choked up.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: Um, anyway, so-
Terry Montesi: Great young man …
Chris Kleinert: great young man. He joins our team in 2019. Well, actually, we hire him in 2019.
He starts February 1st of ’20.
Terry Montesi: God.
Chris Kleinert: So he’s one month in and COVID hits and, you know, we find ourselves later in the year going through zoning cases with City Dallas on- Both screen … on Zoom. Yeah.
Terry Montesi: Oh, God.
Chris Kleinert: Some crazy, crazy, uh, experiences. But nonetheless we get, uh, whether we’re gonna do anything or not, let’s at least get it zoned for something, uh, a new use other than multifamily.
Mm-hmm. And so, uh, you know, the, the migration to Dallas, as you know, just what was already happening exploded during and in the early part of COVID. And so, uh, I’ll just tell one quick story, and I’m, I’m… You know, so we have the site zoned, and it’s Colin, it’s Ray, and myself. And there were certainly others.
Ross Perot Jr. was very helpful in this kind of, “Hey, you need to come to Dallas,” uh, kind of initiative, if you will, with Goldman Sachs. And there was a really powerful moment where it was John Waldron, uh, Asim Khalil, uh, one other individual, uh, Kevin Roberts, and we’re… Again, this is sort of, it’s not height of COVID, but this is ’21, and we’re standing in the front- Messy
Terry Montesi: time.
Chris Kleinert: It’s messy time. We’re standing maybe it’s, maybe it’s early ’22, I don’t recall. But standing in the front of our building, and we’re looking out, and we’re looking at North End. And I like to say it this way. Uh, uh, John Waldron, who’s just an unbelievable individual, fantastic leader, uh, was- He’s
Terry Montesi: with-
Chris Kleinert: He’s with Goldman Sachs.
Okay. He’s the CEO-
Terry Montesi: He runs
Chris Kleinert: the- Yeah. Thank you. He’s the CEO of Goldman Sachs, and really the person making the call that Dallas is gonna have a much bigger, m- again, my word, sort of HQ two-like campus, uh, here. And he’s, he’s… There were other sites in the mix for sure, but he’s getting a chance to look out at what were then the 550 apartments.
Yeah. And you could just tell, he goes, “We’ve made our call.” “We’ve, we’ve made the decision.”
Terry Montesi: That’s
Chris Kleinert: where we were- And he shakes Ray’s hand, and it was just the coolest moment. And it was really watching somebody in the, in the case of John Waldron, making a statement for his company to be in Dallas. That was cool.
He could have picked any site, and it would’ve been really amazing- That’s neat … to see that. And to know behind kind of that decision of how we even Had North End in the first place, dating all the way back to 1989 and JPI.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: And I’m thinking, “This is really cool. What an awesome moment.” And from then on, the, the partnership we’ve had, uh, with Goldman Sachs in the design, in the orchestration, if you will, of, uh, what this 11 acre site should look like.
Terry Montesi: Uh- And what percentage of the 11 acres d- do- are they taking up?
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, they’re taking three, three acres.
Terry Montesi: Okay.
Chris Kleinert: And, uh-
Terry Montesi: And it’s 800,000 feet?
Chris Kleinert: 850,000
Terry Montesi: square feet. 850.
Chris Kleinert: Mm-hmm.
Terry Montesi: And they, it’s rumored 5,000 employees.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, yeah, plus or minus. Okay. Yeah. And the, the unique features that… Uh, and I like to say this about 1900 North Ackard where Hunt Consolidated is.
Mm-hmm. I promise you, having watched Ray look at every single facet of that building, and there’s a reason why it is what it is. Goldman Sachs with its three acre campus, 850,000 square feet, it’s the same meticulous nature. And to watch their team, and I have tremendous admiration for their team, how they’ve gone about planning this building for their employees, it is amazing.
So it’s gonna be accompanied by a one and a half acre park. Uh, those… Where the Goldman campus is situated, it’s right on Field. And, uh, if you think of Nowitzki and you think of Houston sort of on the north- Mm-hmm … and west respectively, Perot Museum to the south, it’ll be parcel B at the north, C at the west, and D at the south.
B is probably gonna be an office building. Uh, we hope to, to land enough leases to get going on a building soon.
Terry Montesi: Are y’all, are y’all talking to users now?
We
Chris Kleinert: are definitely talking to users.
Terry Montesi: How’s the, how’s the office activity for big users right now?
Chris Kleinert: You know, there are a few buildings that are announced.
I think that two, maybe three will come to fruition. Uh- I, I, I’m not suggesting it’s a good idea to go spec, but I think there are enough tenants in the market that if you have a really good space, unique space, people will wanna be there.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: Uh-
Terry Montesi: And are, are y’all considering doing that yourself?
Chris Kleinert: Well-
Terry Montesi: Or would you bring a partner
Chris Kleinert: in?
Oh, we’d have a partner. Okay. Yeah, we’re working with Related.
Terry Montesi: Oh,
Chris Kleinert: okay. Uh, and they’re, they’re doing a terrific job- Yeah … assisting, or r- really leading the effort to land tenants.
Terry Montesi: Okay.
Chris Kleinert: Parcel B would be that building. Parcel C would be a hotel, residential perhaps.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: You know, the cost of residential is so high.
Uh, y- you know, it’s tough right now. Mm. But i- if we can, we’d do a, a single podium hotel, residential. Okay.
Terry Montesi: Rental or condo?
Chris Kleinert: Uh, we’d probably do some condo. And again, rental if we can do it at a price point where- Mm … we think it could succeed. Mm. And then the Parcel D closer to the Perot, will wait the longest to see what that should be.
Okay.
Terry Montesi: Good.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, anyway, but it’s-
Terry Montesi: That’s exciting …
Chris Kleinert: yeah, all surrounding that park.
Terry Montesi: Downtown Dallas, um, and I’m reporting from the news.
Chris Kleinert: Sure.
Terry Montesi: You and I have talked a little about it earlier. It’s been pretty battered the last six to nine months with the Mavs and Stars announcing plans to move. Um, what’s your assessment of downtown Dallas?
What’s going on there? Dallas’ leadership and the competitive position of downtown?
Chris Kleinert: Yeah.
Terry Montesi: There’s a lot there.
Chris Kleinert: That’s… Yeah. That’s a tough one. Uh, so one of the things I learned from Ray too, and that this is not… There are different words for this, but his, his description of it is reputation lag.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: And everything has a reputation lag.
It might be weeks, it might be decades, you know? Uh, but what one thinks of something in some form or fashion is probably a dated view. Okay, uh, y- y- if, if that makes any sense. Sure. Reputation lag. And my point there being I think what people think of downtown today is a downtown that really frankly has existed for probably five to 10 years, and that’s, you know, we have had a homeless issue.
That’s being addressed. Uh, homelessness and vagrancy, uh, sort of equally is challenging. And, uh, Billy Pruitt, if you know Billy, he used the phrase vagrancy, and I, I heard him say that and I really… I think that’s a better description-
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm …
Chris Kleinert: because if-
Terry Montesi: But that’s what bothers people.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. You know, the homelessness in a sense, y- you know, you’re gonna have, and if it doesn’t affect you, uh- That’s right
you might still live, work, you know, do whatever. You want to address it. One with a compassionate heart wants to address it- Mm … but you can sort of deal with it. Vagrancy ha- has a fear component.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: And that’s a limiting, obviously gating item to wanting to be somewhere.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: That is being addressed.
Terry Montesi: Great.
Chris Kleinert: And what’s not happening when… And I understand why an AT&T might wanna leave and, you know, if we do or don’t get the Mavericks downtown, we still have, uh, we’ve got a lot of good things happening. And if you just… You know, our s- our downtown area… Well, two things: one, downtown is a mental description that I think everybody has in their head of what is, like, the central part of a, of a, of a city.
Mm. Okay? Uh, and then you, uh, you add to that one’s view of, oh, that’s where all the office buildings are. That’s where, you know, whatever. Whatever you think that is. Well, if you think that’s the case, well, that’s uptown. Okay? And so downtown, if one’s constrained by thinking that’s where the office buildings need to be-
Terry Montesi: So Wood- Woodall Rodgers, you’re saying that a lot of people think of downtown as south of Woodall Rodgers.
Chris Kleinert: South of Woodall Rodgers. In fact, yeah, kinda south of Ross, north of Interstate 30, you know, bounded by, you know, s- 45 and, and 35. Okay.
Terry Montesi: Central and- Yeah … 35.
Chris Kleinert: Okay. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a district, if you will. But what if we envisioned 50,000 people living down there? Because we’re at 15 now. We do have… There, there are things that- It would be
Terry Montesi: different.
Chris Kleinert: It would be different. We have, we have parks. We have some unique features that if you just… If you take what’s happening at the farmers market and you say Look at this residential. Look at sort of the thriving ecosphere that’s here. We’ve got a homeless shelter nearby. We’ve got City Hall, which is kinda dead nearby.
It has sort of these, these unnatural barriers. Mm-hmm. Well, why don’t we remove some of them? I, I really don’t wanna weigh in. I’m sorta indifferent on keeping or not keeping. I’m not passionate about that architecture. Yeah.
Terry Montesi: I wasn’t gonna ar- ask you
Chris Kleinert: about
Terry Montesi: that. You know, but,
Chris Kleinert: you know, but I think you can, you could l- I mean, think of, think of projects you’ve worked on.
There are a million ways, and I’m not a real estate person, and I’ve already said I’m not that entrepreneurial, but y- but you look at down there and you go, “There are a million things one could do to activate this.” We don’t do any of them. But I think it kinda stems from an unwillingness to deal with sort of this vagrancy.
You know, we gotta make change. Somebody needs to get in there and say, “Here’s what we’re doing. Here’s how we’re gonna incentivize this.”
Terry Montesi: Uh, like you mentioned, it’s all about leadership.
Chris Kleinert: It’s about leadership. And y- you know, I admire what Kim Tolbert’s trying to do. We’re in a situation where I think too much has been, been put on her plate.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: I think we have… I do believe… I, I, I like individually every one of our city council people. I think the way our city council is set up is doomed to fail- Yeah … and are destined to fail, and I think we just have, uh, an inability to coalesce around anything right now.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: And I just, it, it pains me.
Terry Montesi: Well, and I’ve been wa- I mean, I would say it’s been that way for l- at least the last 15 years, right?
Chris Kleinert: It’s, it’s not a new problem.
Terry Montesi: No.
Chris Kleinert: I think it’s exacerbated now. And now back to this reputation lag, I think that only magnifies what somebody thinks about downtown. Even though there have been things that are changing- Yeah
in downtown, I, that I don’t think people have
Terry Montesi: the bandwidth to hear. But they don’t get the headlines.
Chris Kleinert: They don’t get the headlines.
Terry Montesi: The Mavs and the Stars get the headlines. Right. The City Hall gets the headlines.
Chris Kleinert: Right.
Terry Montesi: But other than that, the oth- all the little things you’re talking about, um, they don’t get the headlines.
Chris Kleinert: No. And, you know, what gets headlines too is not necessarily the new, uh, 300 units here- No … or, you know, X there.
Terry Montesi: No, it’s the-
Chris Kleinert: But it’s the restaurant closing, and it’s
Terry Montesi: that going bad. It’s, it’s Abline and Mike Coke’s 70-story thing, you know. Yeah. It’s not the little things. You’re right.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah.
Terry Montesi: You’re right. Um, um, next question.
DFW, and you, you said you guys have decided to sort of really invest in this thriving large community, and we’ve, we’ve sort of decided the same. Mm-hmm. Um, our ground up developments, we’re focusing on the big Texas markets. We’re really not going outside of here for ground up. So what’s Hunt’s house view on the DFW economy and this trade area?
Chris Kleinert: Mm-hmm. Still very bullish, uh, e- even with my thoughts on downtown Dallas. And again, I think, think those are gonna be fixed. You know, I think-
Terry Montesi: Well, downtown Dallas is arguably one of- Four, five, six, seven downtowns in the Metroplex
Chris Kleinert: now Yeah. Right. I know. Well, you know, in essence, it’s like driving around Los Angeles and you see pockets that are thriving.
And i- it’s, you know, Ray was a big, uh, backer, enthusiast for the DFW Airport and, and sort of recognizing the impact that that would have. And you just look at all the things that Just kind of draw a circle around the entire metroplex. Here we sit in Fort Worth. The incredible things that are happening north of here, south of here, right here in the city center w- you know, West Fort Worth.
Mm-hmm. Uh, y- you think about, uh, the tollway essentially going up to Oklahoma. I mean, this- It’s crazy … this market is fantastic.
Terry Montesi: I’m working on a deal in Celina with Res- Rex Glendenning, 43 miles north of downtown. Uh if you’d have told me when I was at SMU or, you know, 20 years ago, or, uh, that you’re gonna be working on a deal 43 miles north of downtown, I would’ve said you were crazy.
Chris Kleinert: You’re crazy. Yeah. And I mean, that’s one of the things that kept… When we… Going back to Fields for just- Yeah … 10 seconds. Yeah. When we really said we weren’t ready to do this the first time, part of it was, you know, look, this is just kinda too far north, and I get the whole northern, you know, migration, if you will.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, but we need to understand that better. Well, it didn’t take very long to understand. It, it’s not only is it happening, but it’s already happening way beyond Frisco- Yeah … which sorta gave us the assurance and the confidence that, hey, we’re almost the center of a new middle. You’re a new- That’s right
kind of a donut. It’s not downtown, it’s, it’s migrated north. Uh, anyway, so incredibly bullish. The company, like a Goldman Sachs move, a Morgan Stanley play- Yall Street … Yall Street, TI, you know, in Sherman, and we think about SMU and TCU and UNT and, and the incredible programs they have, the talent base, the young people here.
Uh, w- this morning we were given, I was part of a tour of the Goldman campus. Uh, Goldman’s CAO was in from New York, and she was staying, uh, at a hotel right near the Katy Trail, and she was absolutely blown away by the number of people on the trail-
Terry Montesi: The activity …
Chris Kleinert: and the average age of the people on- Yeah
the trail. And going-
Terry Montesi: What if you had something like the Katy Trail running through downtown? Oh.
Chris Kleinert: And I know there are plans for something like that, you know, sort of a main street, sort of a, a pleasant walking experience.
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, but the, the dynamism, if that’s the right word to use, of the, the talented young people in this area and who they’re working for now, what they’re gonna do in the future, yeah, we just wanna be a part of that in some way.
Terry Montesi: Great. Well, we’re right there with you.
Chris Kleinert: Right.
Terry Montesi: As, uh, being a part of the company that invests across energy, real estate, and, and, uh, many other things with l- a long-term horizon, what are a couple big trends that y- you guys are paying attention to for- Sure … the next decade?
Chris Kleinert: Uh, you know, back to the yin and yang that you referenced, I- I, I’ve always admired since I’ve met, uh, Ashley’s brother, Hunter.
He’s a big, big thinker and, uh, one of his first jobs, I think it was his first job out of SMU, was going to work for Morgan Stanley in London in their power trading group.
Terry Montesi: Wow.
Chris Kleinert: And he became Uh, he’s a quick study, and when he’s onto something, he really… He, he’s, he’s very good at kinda grasping how all the pieces fit.
And the punchline here being is energy and solving the energy solution here in Texas is gonna be, uh, vital to can we maintain this growth trajectory? And it’s not just data centers. Of course it is, but it’s not just. Uh, there are so many other competing demands for, uh, you know, for that, for that power, uh, that how we solve this with whether it’s backup generation, uh, y- you know, obviously alternatives, but he gets that, and I’m really excited about how our company is playing that in multiple different ways as a differentiator from both oil and gas, but also from real estate and, and other things.
And so, uh, I think that’s gonna be a, a pretty interesting thing to watch for Texas, and, and I’m fired up about how Hunt is engaging.
Terry Montesi: Are y’all involved in w- w- water issues?
Chris Kleinert: You know, we’ve not-
Terry Montesi: Not
Chris Kleinert: invested in- … really
Terry Montesi: done…
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. You know, that’s an interesting one because, you know, we’re just watching… M- My mother for a long time lived in Nevada and, uh- Oh, wow
right in Las Vegas. Oh. You know, fly over the Hoover Dam every time. Oh, man. You just see, you know, the, the white sort of the rim rock around the canyon. You just see- Oh … more and more every time.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: And the Colorado River issue.
Terry Montesi: Lake Powell, it’s crazy.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, I mean, I… That’s one… I’m thankful we’re focused on it.
Yeah. But I also think how we-
Terry Montesi: I don’t know how you fix
Chris Kleinert: it. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know how we fix it, and I just am saying f- with respect to Texas, y- I don’t mean to say winners and losers, but y- as a state and, you know, the government’s gotta make some tough choices on how we continue to make sure water is available for everybody.
Yeah. Uh, and as long as we stay ahead of the curve, I think we’re great.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: S- Other states certainly have not.
Terry Montesi: Beyond business, you and Ashley have founded two nonprofits that I’m aware of, Executives in Action, which is, I understand, has transitioned to Catchafire Dallas, and then the Good Foundation, um, which serves vulnerable populations.
Tell us about that, and then mention Ashley’s food truck- Yeah … Ruthie’s, which I’ve been paying attention to-
Chris Kleinert: Oh …
Terry Montesi: for a long time, and, and how giving back shows up not only in your family, but the way, uh, Hunt Consolidated operates in our community.
Chris Kleinert: Sure. Well, again, I appreciate the question. There’s a lot there.
Yeah. And thank you for, for recognizing those few things that, that Ashley and I did. You know, Ashley’s… She, she’s an amazing person, and I’m so grateful, you know, we crossed paths and she’s my wife. The She’s had, she’s always had this incredible compassionate heart, and she gets that from her parents. Uh, but, you know, always the no, no matter what your state is, uh, you’re in a position to help somebody else.
And especially if, uh, you’ve sort of been, y- you know, kind of Warren Buffett had the, you know, you’re, you know, you’re American or you’re… You know, all the things about I pr- I’m, I’m doing a terrible job, but the point being, you distill down your lot in life and just you think about what a gift it is to
Terry Montesi: be here.
We’re the man.
Chris Kleinert: And-
Terry Montesi: We’re blessed …
Chris Kleinert: we are blessed. And so the, the kind of always having your eyes open of what needs might be and where might we in some small way help. And that was Executives in Action, 2008, nonprofits were hurting, uh- People were being let go. Well, guess what? You know what? For better, or it was better, not better or worse, but for better, we just know a lot of these nonprofits.
We know what their needs are. How can we connect these people? So we started something like that.
Terry Montesi: I love that idea.
Chris Kleinert: It was, it was an easy one, and just we continue to… It’s, it’s, it’s been the… Anyway, we still see some people that were part of the program, and it’s just so great. Good Foundation was really set up, uh, not necessarily just because of, of awareness of sex trafficking, but that, uh, domestic violence victims, just things where, you know, look, how can we help people get back on their feet?
Whatever that might be. Not inconsistent with Executives in Action, but here, what is it Good Foundation can do to either convene or bring people together to, to try new ideas or simply just, you know, uh, jobs or what can we do to help people get a second chance?
Terry Montesi: Help vulnerable populations.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah. Okay. So now, and then you ask about Ashley’s- Ruthie’s
food truck. So okay, Ashley’s, uh, Ashley is very entrepreneurial like her brother and father, and, uh, her, her philosophy is whatever the question is, it’s generally yes is the answer, much to my, you know, dismay or, uh, awkwardness. You know, but we get into so many different things because of that, and she went to some, uh…
She, she for a few years as something to do got into event planning, and she loved it. You know, I think she likes to be in charge. You know the adage, just a clipboard and a lanyard, and you can get in anywhere, right? So she went to this conference and, and she came back and she goes, “I heard the trends are comfort food and food trucks, and I think I have an idea.”
And I’m like, “No, not really. I’m not sure.” I, you know-
Terry Montesi: Every now and then we need to say no, but
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, we need to think about this one. She goes, “I really wanna do this food truck business.” And it’s like, okay. And so she was the second food truck outside of call it your construction trucks, uh, permitted in the city of Dallas, like in 2010.
And it’s been this 15, 16-year run. And in 2000, oh, let’s see, ’17 or ’18, if you’re familiar with Cafe Momentum-
Terry Montesi: Mm-hmm …
Chris Kleinert: great concept. Love, love, love Chad Houser and what he’s built. And the idea of taking his graduates, and then they became the employees on the food truck, uh, that really changed everything about Ruthie’s Cafe.
And ultimately, uh, the… There’s a lot there that I, I won’t go into, but the, uh, that led to a partnership with Unlocking Doors and Men of Nehemiah and these nonprofits that are essentially, uh, people that have, have come out of the, uh, prison system- generally those people don’t come out with jobs, you know, so they’re kind of, you know, looking for something to do.
It’s hard for them to get something to do. And, and that employee base I, I mean that, Ashley drives a car. It’s not a, you know, it’s a car, but it stands out, if you will. And so it makes me a little nervous when she goes to her restaurant- Yeah … that everybody knows if she’s there or not.
Terry Montesi: Yeah.
Chris Kleinert: And no one is looking out for her more than her team.
And this restaurant, 1632 Martin Luther King, right by St. Philip’s School, uh, it’s been open about a year and a half. It’s, it’s going great, and I’m so proud of her-
Terry Montesi: That’s so cool … you
Chris Kleinert: know, what she’s built.
Terry Montesi: We’re just about at the end of our time, but, um, is there anything you’d like to ask me?
Chris Kleinert: Uh, yeah. Okay, so, you know, I love the question that Ray…
Ray’s got a go-to question, so I’ll ask Ray’s
Terry Montesi: go-to question. Yeah, great.
Chris Kleinert: Uh, but whenever we are meeting with a really unique person or get to do something, uh, special, the person that’s doing it, uh, he’ll typically ask questions of that person. It’s really fun to watch, so I’m glad you asked. And- This is a test
he’ll typically ask one of, one of a couple things, but he’ll usually say, “Okay, so why did you start doing what you’ve done? Uh, what led you to say, ‘You know what? I wanna do this’? And number two, uh, what’s been your biggest surprise of doing it? Something that you never would’ve thought had been an outcome of this very practice you’re doing.”
Terry Montesi: Yeah. That’s fun. Well, I have to go back a while, too. So I grew up in Memphis, and we were in the retail grocery business, sort of the Tom Thumb when they were independent, before they sold to Safeway, the Tom Thumb of Memphis. Matter of fact, my dad knew Jack Evans really well-
Chris Kleinert: Okay … ‘
Terry Montesi: cause all the independent grocers around the country knew.
So I used to, my dad would drive me around with him looking for sites for a new 60 or 70,000-foot grocery store. And I just remember that, and I, I, I dug it. And then I would walk through, um, grocery stores with him and see him picking up trash, et cetera, and I… So, like, the, the retail and real estate thing, you know, I kind of s- thought, “I may have to do this one day.”
And, and I’ll, I’ll share a story. You didn’t ask about the name of Trademark, but we’re walking down the aisle one time, and I see, I see all these TMs with a little circle around them, and I said, “Hey, Dad, w- why, why do they all have my initials on them?” He said, “Well, TM means trademark in this country, Terry.”
I was like, “Oh, okay.” So it stuck with me, and I guess I said, “If I’m ever gonna start a company, I’m gonna call it Trademark.” That’s great. So that, that was sort of the start of it. Then my brother and I became a Blockbuster franchisee, um, and I got to become, you know, a m- more of a retail real estate guy, and I really, I loved it.
And then I, I just started… Just ha- a, a passion for- Um, I wanted, I wanted what I do to have a, have an impact. And in my mind, building quality things that last way longer than me, um, that impact people’s lives would, would be a way of doing it. And I, I, uh, you know, I tell people all the time, I, I told my kids, I’m highly motivated.
Um, my grandparents all immigrated from Italy, and they were all, you know, sixth grade educated, super poor. Took that crazy risk. You know, can you imagine being in the bottom of some boat with no windows and all these people around you, and you’re going, you’re eight years old or 10 years old, or 13 years old, or 16 years old.
That’s how old they were. So I’ve always felt like I needed to make them proud.
Chris Kleinert: Hmm. That’s incredible.
Terry Montesi: I’m getting choked
Chris Kleinert: up. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s, that’s really cool.
Terry Montesi: And then what surprised?
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, surprised.
Terry Montesi: What has surprised me about trademark and business? Um, that’s a good one. What, what has surprised me?
Well, I’d say that, um, the, the complexities of, you know, the human condition, dealing with people-
Chris Kleinert: Mm-hmm …
Terry Montesi: and how unpredictable and … people can be sometimes, and how, you know, you may have had, uh, an idea about someone that turns out not to be like you thought-
Chris Kleinert: Right …
Terry Montesi: um, which can sometime be disappointing. Um, so I think, you know, ’cause I’m a, I’m, as you probably can tell, I’m, I’m a glass half full person.
Chris Kleinert: Sure.
Terry Montesi: And, you know, sometimes s- people you put so much confidence in that, you know, they’re human and they can disappoint you. So I think that’s probably, you know, I’m, I’m such an idealist that I, you know, I wanna believe in everybody. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt and, and sometimes they disappoint you.
But, um, I, it’s been a fun ride. It’s been a fun ride. Yeah. Thanks for that question.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah, absolutely.
Terry Montesi: Hopefully Ray would be okay with, with that answer. You know,
Chris Kleinert: uh, I think he … Well, yeah, the, the fact that it got you
Terry Montesi: choked up- Yeah …
Chris Kleinert: I think, I think he’d have really been proud of the question.
Terry Montesi: Well, thanks.
Chris Kleinert: And the answer.
Terry Montesi: Well, thanks.
Chris Kleinert: Yeah.
Terry Montesi: Well, um, Chris, thanks. This has been a great conversation and I always, um, uh, appreciate you, a disciplined guy thinking long-term and, and trying to do the right thing for the long term, and that’s, uh, that’s something that I’m trying to do myself. Uh, you and the Hutt team have had a meaningful impact on North Texas, and I know there’s a lot more great things ahead, so thanks for your time.
I’m
Chris Kleinert: grateful to have done it, Terry.
Terry Montesi: Thank you. Thank you.